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Rated: PG
Click "Long Length " for the last 125 posts.

LONG LENGTH

John Odom - Fri 21 Apr 2017 14:22:04 #0

John Larson Iron Kiss

John has closed down Iron kiss and sold his machinery. He said he wanted to close out while ha could still do things he has always wanted to. He says he was making money with Iron Kiss and had a big backlog of people who wanted to order. He IS on Facebook.


Chuck - Fri 21 Apr 2017 15:29:34 #0

Leeson

LOREN T--I think that might be the problem on mine. I have a Grandson that can --NOW-- check this out. I will se when he will do that.
Beautiful day here today. Had abut .30 of rain and Pea size hail. Breeze, with 51 temp.
Planted another Blackberry---Will plant a 'Blue Berry' if it looks like it won't frost.
Life is great.
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Sat 22 Apr 2017 11:30:47 #0

Up and around again

Been kind of getting my butt kicked for a few months, healthwise, but slowly working out of it. Back troubles, ear troubles, heart rythm problems, wrong med problems causing psoriasis flare, but either I'm getting better or learning to live with it or a combination.

I'm also setting up a new belt grinder. Considering an old 1HP motor for it, but don't know if that is enough spunk for a 2X72.

I also had a motor that was wired for 220 and running on 110 for a while, but I lucked out when the wires inside the box broke and I got tipped off when I went in to repair them.

Chuck, you have mentioned that disc grinder before. Are you using it to flat=grind blades? Are you using the glue-on discs or the loose ones? I have about everything I need to build one of those, too, while I am building, and the other machine I'm pretty intent on building is a pheumatic sander for knife handles. Nothing on this earth will finish a handle quicker or better than that small diameter pheumatic head mounted on a couple of pillow blocks.

I had all of this stuff until I sold out a couple of years ago, but got involved in other stuff and didn't get it replaced.

Yep, we got a fair amount of rain and the wild poppies are all over the place again. Still too cold at night for them to REALLY taker over like they do sometimes, but maybe in a few weeks they will.....Joe


Jeff Reinhardt - Sat 22 Apr 2017 12:45:20 #0

disc sanders

I have a pair of 12" disc sanders and nothing deburrs, profiles or provides as much abrasive power the dollar as a 12" disc. Mine are pressure sensitive adhesive. I have 2 so I can set up with more than one grit and will soon add a third I think. I currently run a 36 grit zirconium oxide and a 120 grit aluminum oxide. I will add the third and probably use it with a 60 grit zirconium oxide. I go for the Y weight backed discs on the bigger grits they hold up better and are water proof.


Joe Rollings - Sat 22 Apr 2017 22:20:45 #0

Very cool, thanks

and how fast do you run them, at what HP?....again, thanks.....Joe


Jeff Reinhardt - Sun 23 Apr 2017 07:28:02 #0

disc sanders

Joe both or my disc sanders are factory made and both run 3450 rpm. One is a Harbor fright and claims 3/4 Hp. the other is a many years old AMD and also claims 3/4Hp. The HF is running the 36 grit, and I have been hogging profiles and so forth on it for maybe 5 years. The bearings are starting to make a little more noise then when new but runs smooth. The AMD is still smooth and runs great. I have maybe 20 years on that one.
I would go to a 1 hp minimum if building at home and would only consider a TEFC type motor.

The zirconium Oxide abrasives are for hogging as you make new sharp edges when hogging in this grit and they load up is not aggressively hogged.


Bert - Sun 23 Apr 2017 12:02:38 #0

Back to Hammer Die Questions

Anybody ever use RR track for them? Is it worth trying or is it a dumb question?

Thnx


plain ol Bill - Mon 24 Apr 2017 00:52:06 #0

rr track

Bert on the first hammer I made I used main line track for the dies and they were my favorite set. Cut them off right under the rail and welded to flat bar to bolt down. Nice crown so you could draw well and flatten well using short bites.


Chuck - Mon 24 Apr 2017 01:44:53 #0

Grinding--hammer

JOE I use a nine inch disc.
I buy the sheets on the internet but prefer to buy from 'TRUE GRIT' in Calif. good people. Primary flat grind grit is 40. I go up in grit as the blade comes around. I finish grind at 800 to 1,200 with a light buff. Lots of work most folks won't do.
I use a 0ne HP reversing motor on the disc----It came out of an evaporative air conditioner 1,170 RPM?. It will grind to beat hell. I use a spray on adhesive when it is needed---heat gun to get the disc to peel off.
Like JEFF--I think I would either get a 2 horse or gear the fast motor down for more power for 2X72 belt grinder. 3,300 direct drive is fast for a belt.

I hollow grind against an eight inch wheel on a 2X72---freehand with a notched stick to hold the blade steady against the wheel--same stick on the flat grind on the disc--
Primary handle work on the disc and finish handle work on a slack belt 2X72 in a 320 grit.
Good night
God Bless
~chuck


Bert - Mon 24 Apr 2017 10:35:15 #0

Thnx

Bill. I was figuring to have to cut the track off and weld, track is nearly 8" tall... The Tillamook Line is replacing a crossing near my house and with the help of the crew, a couple short pieces found their way into my truck while I was waiting on the flag people to cross.. Figured it had to be hard enough to use for something...

B


Chuck - Mon 24 Apr 2017 15:02:48 #0

Hammer.

BERT--Railroad iron top and bottom on my home made power hammer.
Been working good for a lot of years.
There is a nice spot that has gradually smoothed down. The rest of it still draws pretty good.
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Mon 24 Apr 2017 22:34:06 #0

An answer and a question

Of course, nobody asked a question that matched the answer I have except me, but somebody else might need it some time so I'll rattle it off.

Blew a capacitor on one of the motors I'm going to be using on the grinders, and couldn't find any numbers on it, so went looking for a formula to calculate the UF for the capacitor.

Learned that the formula is 2650 times the full load amps of the motor, divided by the line voltage. Need to order one with at least 1 1/2 times the voltage it will be running off of.

Thus, my 12 amp 120 volt motor needed a 265 UF capacitor, aproximately. I found one that was rated for 250 volts, and it worked like a house afire.

As to the question, for those who use disc grinders, do you find yourselves facing the face of the disc when you are grinding or the edge? Ot both?

If it is the edge, because I intend to make my own steel discs, I can make two, one facing the left, the other facing the right, and do both sides of a knife with the disc turning the correct way. If it is the face, I will need to be aqble to reverse the disc and work from the front.....Thanks in advance.....Joe


Chuck - Tue 25 Apr 2017 13:18:06 #0

reversing mtr.

JOE-- I did not elaborate well enough on the reversing motor.
I put a switch on the 1 HP air conditioner. I used six little jumping cables inside my box but you can buy a switch.
I stand square up in front of the disc, goggles, mask, and should use earmuffs.
I do what D'Holder calls a belly grind.
I pull my arms back against my belly --therefore steadying my hands.
I grind looking down at the edge and the sparks are hitting the floor, reverse the mtr, flip your blade, change hands and the sparks are still mostly hitting the floor.
I mark the blades with a sharpened end of a file. I scratch one line, then flip the blade scratch the second line trying to keep a dime or 3/332" space between the two lines.
After heat treating I will grind flat all the way to the edge(leather working knife) or sharpen with a long 15 degree edge.
The belly grind is important--keeps the hands steady enough to grind to your lines fore and aft at the same time.
All my grinding is free hand, so, I just pull out on the tail to cause the grind to curve up to the point.
Anything I leave out, holler.
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Wed 26 Apr 2017 11:23:01 #0

Thanks much, Chuck....Joe


bruce godlesky - Wed 26 Apr 2017 16:43:03 #0

belly grind= organic tool rest I've heard it called (BOG)
Same as I do it but with rigid wrists a some body movement .


Chuck - Wed 26 Apr 2017 22:03:39 #0

Belly Grind

Belly Grind--Body movement is probably why most knifemakers like 'Swing', "Blues' music.
I screwed up today. First time since the fifties.
I did not drill my holes before blade quenching O1(Did not quench the full tang).
Was thinking about a Grandson and his problems. I flat did not think about the handle part hardening. Cold barn I guess. I damn sure knew to drill all the holes.
Tough grind-----Will hot punch or something. Grin
~chuck


bruce godlesky - Thu 27 Apr 2017 17:38:35 #0

break down and buy a carbide bit Chuck!
I did the same thing a coupla weeks ago. After a lot of cussin' and such I remembered I had a bit here..... Sometimes I even reheat treat justy to avoid more cussin.


Chuck - Thu 27 Apr 2017 20:32:42 #0

O1 steel

BRUCE- I done clamped(Wired) the two blades between two drops of 5160 spring steel. I have a spike can full of ashes. They should be ready by mid-morning.
I tried two different 'Cobalt' bits. They would just barely spin a dot on the full tang handles.
I checked the edge after two, one hour, 300 degree draws. New file edge just skidded. May be too hard to sharpen. Might have to draw it a little hotter.
If the anneal don't work. I will do it again. I might have got the tails to hot while tapering the tangs.
The design of the blade is new to me. A 5/32 steel hollow ground, narrow waist(roche) a skinning belly, a deep sway back, with a Kephart type point in the center of the blade-- Hard to grind by hand(for me).
Cold fronts marching through here like goose stepping Korean soldiers. Two in the last three days with another coming tonight. Gonna freeze(twenties) Saturday morning.
We gambled, setting out good tomato plants. Okra is up. We can cover most of the maters and a few of the okra. Peppers are going to be on their own. Grin.
Later
God bless
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Sat 29 Apr 2017 14:37:08 #0

Belt sander finished, on to the discs

I made a little bitty bandsaw a few years ago after I sold out the business because I needed one ofr cutting out knife scales and I had a whole bunch of 1/8" wide blades on hand. Later I bought an antique table top 14" bandsaw for that, and just finished converting the one I made into my new 2x72 belt grinder. Tracks perfectly and runs like a charm.

Now, I am onto the disc grinders. They are not too expensive from HF, but I'd rather build them since I can make several heads to switch around and save abrasive paper as needed. I have a stack of good old thick saw blades that I can plasma-cut the teeth off of and grind them round and slick on the rims. Just need to figure out how to attach them to the hubs without welding them and putting a wobble in the steel disc. I guess I COULD turn the hubs out of maybe two inch round stock, bore and ream the holes, then screw the blades to them with flat-head screws.

Should be able to buy those sanding heads that key to a shaft somewhere, but I can't seem to come up with the right name for google to find them. If it popps into anybody's head, I'd like to know about it. I DID find some of them but they were around $100 each, which does not strike me as reasonable when I can make them for just the time invested on the lathe....Joe


bruce godlesky - Sun 30 Apr 2017 06:24:56 #0

Most of the anneals I do are left in the gasser til cool. Really stubborn blades get the digital oven treatment. For the most part, seveal heat cycles then left overnight in the gasser usually do the trick.


Darrell - Sun 30 Apr 2017 15:56:49 #0

Belt Grinder

Well I have built my belt grinder twice now. The first time i followed a set of plans from the net(http://www.instructables.com/id/2X72-Belt-Grinder/).
The way it turned out it would have needed a 2x96" belt. I ended up cutting it all apart.
I cut the 2x13" tube down to 2x9" for the horizontal pieces and 2x11" for the vertical piece.
I re-positioned the tracking wheel on the vertical 1.5x17" piece and cut the 1.5x15" pieces down to 1.5x12".
Now the 2x72" belt fits good. I put up a photo. now all I have to do is make a platen and a table and it is done.


Chuck - Mon 01 May 2017 17:07:15 #0

Belt grinder & anneal

DARRELL---Glad to see the grinder is nearing useful stage. I am going to get some Pyro Glass for the front of my platen. It will not burn up like plastic, wood or leather.
I did get my O1 annealed. Have the holes drilled the blade straightened from squeezing between two curved springs. grin.
We will now see if they will harden as good as the first quench. O1 is pretty forgiving---Good thing it is.

'Forged In Fire' tomorrow night. Ray Kirk will be on.
God Bless
~chuck/sandpile


Darrell - Tue 02 May 2017 01:27:23 #0

Belt Grinder

I had a Grizzly belt grinder at one time and it just had iron for the platen and that seemed to work fine.
I picked up a couple of drops today that should finish off my new grinder.
I have a 2 horsepower 3 phase motor on it with a 220 volt VFD driving it.


bruce godlesky - Tue 02 May 2017 08:42:14 #0

Darrell's grinder...... VaROOM!! That thing otta really crank!!
RWWilson runs 154" belts on his grinders, or somewhere thereabouts. I get my platens grooved no matter wehat the mnaterial is :-) Too much heat I reckon. I still have the 1st glass one I bought from Steve Pryor. It's pretty rough but still useable. When the steel ones get ugly I just run a few passes on the surface grinder.
Always good to see folksd nya know on the TV!! And Ray is a great guy!!


Darrell - Thu 04 May 2017 00:04:22 #0

Belt Grinder

The 36 grit belts are here.


Joe Rollings - Thu 04 May 2017 16:10:45 #0

sander backing plates

Anybody else building disc sanders, the 9" plate from grizzly sells for about $35 and is cast iron. part # P1014021.

Do not have them in my hot little hands yet, so there could be complications, but will report back when they come in.

Had started to turn the hubs on the metal lathe, but time just has to be worth something.....Joe


Chuck - Thu 04 May 2017 23:39:36 #0

Sanders

JOE --If they have a con-vex disc that will run smooth. I can put a thin neophrem disc on it then grind blades longer 4.5 inches.
he reason for the neophrem(sp) is to stop the chatter, rattling noise. Aluminum is bad enough, cast might be worse. BUT if it runs smooth and comes flat and convex. I am sure enough interested. That is a hundred cheaper. Good find, especially if it is balanced.
Some of the makers are starting to use some huge wheels 10, 14, 18, now someone has a 20 inch. Talk about throwing breakers and never quit rolling.

I finished a blade that I had to anneal, polished it out almost ready to put the slabs on. Found a crack right on top in the thickest part of the blade.
New O1 steel, hardened, annealed because I forgot to drill pin holes. A slow heat up to about 1,500 quenched in 135 degrees. Tempered twice at 300 degrees.
A crack, well it will make a nice pattern.

Glass is a lot easier on your belts(heat)---does not throw a grove in your blades as bad as an aged metal backing.
God Bless
~chuck


Darrell - Fri 05 May 2017 20:05:45 #0

Belt Grinder

The platen and table are in place.The belt grinder is done. Now just waiting for the fine grit belts.


Alex Ivey - Sun 07 May 2017 12:40:44 #0

Rawhide Day's

Attended Tucumcari Rawhide Days yesterday. Jim Keith and his people put on a great event with 6 blacksmith teams demonstrating and competing in 3 categories. Some really nice items were sold at auction later in the day most of which were made during the 2 day event. Mark Milster from Oklahoma had a bed frame done with all traditional joinery that had many hours of work in it, with new mattress, box spring and bedding included that sold for only $1,100. Best bargain of the auction in my opinion. He also had a 2 lb rounding hammer that went for a whopping $525., WOW. Many other nice items too numerous to list. All in all it was a great day, well worth the 200 mile trip. Jim took me and 2 other NMABA members attending on a tour of his shop, that was great, Thank you Jim.

Chuck, Jim said you were there on Friday, sorry I missed you, maybe next we can schedule better. Did get to see Vince Smith who I had met at Chris Thompson's place and at the Lincoln County Cowboy Symposium. He did some good cooking with his chuck wagon crew LXIV,


Chuck - Sun 07 May 2017 15:20:09 #0

Rawhide Days.

ALEX-- Sure sorry we did not match up on our days.
Helen has been having some problems. Today she seems to be a little better. Pain is not quite so much. I was wanting to visit about some of y'alls members.
THOMAS POWER quit here in a huff. Wondered if he is doing alright.
Joe Cordova's health and Jerry Duran?

JOE I had a couple of knives over to Tucumcari that had the handle wood you sent me. They said "The wood is great, what is it"? I would give them a song and dance about the steel, knife design, point out the sheath. They would say "Their nice. What is the beautiful wood"?
Some of the wood out of your board is so nice. It takes some rubbing and finishing but is be worth the effort.
Linseed oil, Beeswax and heat sure makes the "Boggy-Oak" look jump out. Velvet touch/feeling.
Some is plain but the ones with grain are nice.
Got the garden coming a little.
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Sun 07 May 2017 22:25:18 #0

handle oak

At the time I had that oak, I tried a handle out of it, and it sure was nice, but it burned every time I tried to machine finish it.....needed hand finishing, and at the time I was NOT make hand finished knives so i figure3d it should go to somebody who would do it justice.

It came from the river country in Southern Illinois, given to a friend by a guy who worked in a milling enterprise and cabinet factory. There would not be enough of that burl to make a single piece of furniture, so he set it aside. I had had it for years, was going to get around to making a set of scales and knife for the guy who gave it to me, but I found him dead one afternoon, so it was too dang late for that.

Real glad that you are enjoying it, and it finally is getting used for something worthwhile....Joe


Loren T - Mon 08 May 2017 10:28:18 #0

Wood

I have made my share of knives and other stuff with exotic woods. My son worked for a Hardwoods supply company for 14 years, starting out as yard help and ending up as a VP. One of the owners was the buyer and he would get samples all the time of woods you never heard of. He had a cache of them and when he got to know me, he gave them to me. I used them for years and still have a few slabs of black walnut left after 3 moves.


Buck Brown - Mon 08 May 2017 14:31:11 #0

Knife handle slabs.

Chuck...Sure hope Hellen is doing better. My favorite handle wood is Desert Ironwood. It is naturally oily and requires no finish. The more it is used the better it gets.


Jim Keith - Mon 08 May 2017 14:39:55 #0

Rawhide

Alex, it was a great honor to have you and your two partners over here for a day. We appreciate all of your involvement with our little celebration and hope to see you back soon.
Abel Sanchez and his brother did some impressive work along with our other contestants. I could not have more pleased with the turnout and the quality of forgings we had.


Jim Keith - Mon 08 May 2017 14:42:24 #0

Rawhide again

Chuck, glad you made it down along with Freddie and Kevin. Hope they down well with their booths.


Joe Rollings - Tue 09 May 2017 23:00:54 #0

Ironwood

A few things about Ironwood;

It is so heavy it will not float

If you are cutting or sanding it and it starts smoking from dull saw teeth or clogged sandpaper, that will make you awfull sick for a day or two. Sometimes the dust will do that , too.

The best way I ever found to shape it was to keep trying stiffer wire wheels until you find one that will dig right into it and throw coarse dust, then you can shape it without heating it or fulling up the paper. It leaves a lovely finish like rough staghorn, and you can finish THAT with a cotton buff and compound. Looks like you can see into the grain for about 6 inches.

When you use it for pistol grips, etc, you can actually thread it with a tap and tighten the screws REAL tight without stripping them.

The more years you work with it, the sicker it makes you when you snort it.

I'll drive right past a dead ironwood tree nowadays and never look twice. Too many years using it.....Joe


Chuck - Wed 10 May 2017 00:19:09 #0

Rawhide Days and Ironwood.

JIM KEITH We enjoyed it, Thanks for putting it together.

JOE-- I once walked into a pawn shop in Pagosa Springs, CO. I stopped to look at the chunk of wood being use as a fake door stop.
The owner saw me nudge it with my leg, then pick it up. He Said "You have any idee what that chunk of wood is"? I told him it was probably ironwood. He grinned and said "You are the first that knew what it is".
I ended up trading for it. It had two good knots in it and some other grainy places on.
his Grampa had hauled it out of the Sonoran desert in the thirties. It had been cut a long time before that. I still have a few pieces of it.
Balsa, some Bo- Darc, Bocate, Cocabalo would kill me if I ground them with out protection.
The damn stuff builds up on a guy. Or the triggers stay close to the top.
Some Bo Darc is bad shit, some will not bother me.
At this point I just don't grind any Osage Orange except what I have and know it to be alright.
some of this stuff will cut your air off just as quick as Ammonia.
Helen buys masks(good ones) everytime she sees them. I use them now where I did not use to.
Storming. Hope eastern NM does not get hammered.
God bless
~chuck


Chuck - Wed 10 May 2017 00:39:31 #0

Buck & LorenT.

LOREN T--I love exotic wood if I know what it is and how I am going react to it.
Love good, deep grained wood.
Exhibition(sp) grade Ironwood is beautiful. Some wood is more expensive than the knife it is put on.
BUCK- Thanks. Helen is still kicking, just not as high as she once did. We may have figured out the cause of her severe pain. We think it is Pancreas related.
The doctors are all agreed-It is not her Pancreas.
We will continue to help them fund their kids college funds. Have to do this till they stumble on to the correct diagnosis.
We are almost positive it is her Pancreas
One of our Grand-daughters has --GENECTIC PANCREAITOS. Severe pain and all the symptoms Helen has.
We go again tomorrow for another 'Sonar' test.
Night
God Bless
~chuck/sandpile


Loren T - Wed 10 May 2017 11:59:11 #0

Ironwood

Not only does ironwood not float, it does not burn unless you have an abundance of other wood with it in the fire. Also, it will burn out a good chainsaw blade in nothing flat. In the woodworking club in Sun City and in the lapidary club are signs, "No Grinding or Polishing of Ironwood".


Joe Rollings - Thu 11 May 2017 10:47:14 #0

ironwood and O'sage

My friend used to go to where the Seri Indians did their ironwood carvings down in Mexico, and buy the ones tha t got ruined, them slab them up and sell the wood for knife scales.

They rough-carve those with 7 1/4" saw blades on 1/4 horse motors, no guards, hand-holding the wood. There was almost always more fingers missing from the carvers from one trip down there to the next, but they never quit until they didn't have enough left to hold the wood any more.

Chuck, when w lived up north, I used to buy mesquite logs from a guy in Clarendon, Texas, and he threw in some nice Osage Orange from time to time, but it was green and had to be cut up pronto or it would crack. Awful pretty stuff, but I never got the hang of working it.....Joe


Chuck - Thu 11 May 2017 14:40:51 #0

Osage Orange

Osage Orange wood I have and like is from corner posts that were put in the ground in 1880-4. The fence was pulled up and replaced about 1990,
They were in the ground for over a hundred years. Some of them were 8" thick. I sawed some of them up in 18" lengths. Thought how nice the end grains were threw a few aside to wait until it hit me to use it for this or that.
A while later(months)I noticed the ends had started cracking.
The next I opened up that I like I paraphened the ends. There has been a little cracking even with the paraphine(sp). The hundred years was not time to relieve the stress/moisture inside the post.
This Bois Darc is bright orange fresh-sawed or sanded but darkens with exposure.
I used it for hatchet handle, knife slab handles, hidden tang knife handles necklace crosses, mixed the saw dust with epoxy for a nice fine filler line.
It has not bothered me to use it. Some that I have got from other places have really got to me---Bout shut my chest down.
I think I have caused some of(maybe most)this by not protecting myself for too long.----
~chuck

~chuck


Joe Rollings - Thu 11 May 2017 22:11:34 #0

We had it in hedge rows in illinois and made a lot of posts from it, too. I tried to hang a gate from one and every time I tried to put wood screws into it I twisted them off. Dosn't like nails too much either.

Dad came along and told me that if I could get it to carry an electrical current, maybe I could weld the hinges on.... :) .....Joe


John Odom - Thu 11 May 2017 22:45:01 #0

BoDark

I love it! For screws, I drill and tap and use machine screws. It does not seem to grow much around here. I glom on to any I come across.


Joe Rollings - Fri 12 May 2017 10:46:42 #0

guy selling ironwood

https://tucson.craigslist.org/art/6126955564.html


Chuck - Fri 12 May 2017 10:51:20 #0

Bo Darc

Bo Darc----is a hard wood--understatement.
It is like Mesquite each time it is cut, the suckers that sprout out of the root mass are HARDER than the ones cut just before them.
I have seen Bo Darc trees you could not cut, if you did not have a good set of dogs on your sharp chain saw. Just bounce off after skinning the bark up.

Bo Darc fibers are super fine. Working up a hatchet handle with a shoeing rasp will raise splinters worse than any other wood. People that don't know any better will want feel the unfinished wood. It will get them some little bitty splinters, that will break off when you try to pull them out.
Most folks shy away from old Bo Darc. It is beautiful after it is finished but some times on real flat surfaces the thin fibers will get you.
When I was a kid we carried a brace & good bit to make holes in the Bo Darc posts and some of the tight ringed, dark red, juniper corner posts.

I am like Joe's Dad anything that hard should be welded.
~chuck


Chuck - Sat 20 May 2017 00:36:39 #0

Storm celler---root cellar

We are thinking of a storm /root cellar.
I have some between the rails wooden railroad crossing pads(for a better name). We are thinking maybe to dig two six inch side ditches and one end ditch. These steel re-enforced walls will be poured, then skidster dig the dirt out.
Wanting seven foot side walls. If we can't ditch this deep we will form it.
We will have a center steel I-Beam with a 4"X4" steel heavy wall tubing brace on both ends and one the in middle.
The crossing pads will set on top the 5" or 6" I-Beam and walls. Thinking we will have 12'X12' inside.
Heavy plastic and horse trailer matting on top of the crossing pads, then three foot or so of dirt.
Some kind of ventilation. We will figure the other end, door/steps when we get to it.
The reason for not poring a cement top. Ten miles from town--Might have to chain-saw, dig our way out.
I am thinking the walls, I-Beam, brace posts and 6" thick crossing pads will hold the 3' dirt on the top.
The reason for 3' of dirt on top--Radiation --if I figure out the steel door then wood at the bottom of the steps. Root cellar and food storage.
What does anybody think
Info is needed.
Thanks
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Sat 20 May 2017 22:38:41 #0

Quick assessment, more detail later

If your dirt is solid, you can dig a hole, pour the bottom of it with concrete, push in some rebar around the edges, Build a box 1 foot smaller than the hole, with LOTS of cribbing and sturdy reenforcements to keep it from sagging against the weight of the concrete, center it, then pour concrete around the edges, strike the top off flat, install whatever lid suits you.

I have done this a time or two for a septic tank and it worked great. Also very possible to use block to build the walls and fill the holes with more concrete. If you need to economise on the blocks, I have a block mold I'd be happy to loan you. Made it myself, and it DOES need a vibrator to get a good fill every time.

For ventilation, providing there is going to be more than one healthy arm in residence, I'd install a hand-crank forge blower of the Buffallo sort. Wouldn't need to run full-time anyhow, just change the air from time to time. Plenty of drawings of particulate traps on the web. Needs to be an exit pipe for worn-out air somewhere in the plan.

I still find sheet lead from time to time to make ML bullets, so you might find some for a radiation shield, OR you could melt it into sheets and eliminate some depth of hole.

Late in the day for me to think this all the way through, but I'll give it some more thought tomorrow or Tuesday, and re-post.....Got a full day Monday....Joe


Joe Rollings - Sat 20 May 2017 22:48:02 #0

One additional comment

I beams are REALLY expensive, and rebar is really cheap. You can pour most supporting beams and collumns FAR cheaper than you can buy them in steel. PLUS, poured walls will adhere to them MUCH better.....Joe


Chuck - Sun 21 May 2017 00:54:51 #0

Cellar.

JOE--I have some old five inch I-Beams(heavy). Twenty something feet of heavy wall 2"X6" tubing
I have a big coal forge, hand cranked blower. Can't think of the name right now. It is about ten or twelve inches in diameter. It would ex-change air pretty well.
Ditcher has a hoe on it. Around the walls will be shelving.
I was thinking about the extra labor to pour and stand the walls.
I have enough T posts and re-bar fence rods to tie it all together.
Have the new(un-used) sheet of 12 gauge metal and pipe for the outside door. Have some 4" heavy PVC pipe, plastic sheeting and trailer mats.
We have a home built wood or coal burning fan blown--SMALL-- stove. Could pull fresh air for its self.
All this stuff would bring very little in a sale.

Concrete, man power and more know-how is what I really need.
Still thinking about all this.
~chuck


Joe Rollings - Sun 21 May 2017 20:11:14 #0

cellar and steel supplier

I'd dang sure never pour a wall and stand it up if it was going to be underground, because it is much easier to pour it in place around an existing bax form. The first one we poured we had a a couple of youn'ns scooping gravel into the mixer and we got the floor done in a couple of hours on something like a 7x10. I got down there and kinder rough finished it with a trowell. Can't recall if I used a ladder to get back out or if they tossed me a rope, but we let that set a coupld of days while I built the box form. Next time down, I kicked the form off into the hole and centered it, kids started scooping into the mixer again, job was done right after lunch. Had to tear up the box form to get it out because I hadn't made it sturdy enough and it went hour-glass shape and was trapped by the hard concrete.

One funny part was that because it was a septic tank, had to have a hole in each end of the form for the pipes to go in and out of, No jig say to cut a 6 inch hole in plywood, so I backed off a few feet with the double barrel shotgun and blew the holes out. They were close to perfect with a little knife work.

Sometimes, local concrete companies are looking for a place to dump the tag ends of loads when the customer orders more than his forms will hold. My grandaddy actually poured a full basement for the house he built by having them dump surplus loads into the forms, but he should have blown the dust off of the surface between loads, because it made little seperations and lines in the basement walls.

Now, on to business. For once in my life, I want to make some knives with no time pressure on me, because when we were still in business it was always a race with me, and I am confident I never once did my best. Pressure is off now that we sold out, and I am slowly putting the equipment back together and ordering some supplies and materials, but I cannot recall where we used to get those bars of 1095 and 5160 that were 6 feet long. Any help recalling it would be appreciated.

I DO have a LOT of leaf springs, front and rear, from an old dump truck that spent it's last days here, but trthey are so thick I'll either have to get my hammering arm back in shape or build another power hammer....Joe


Joe Rollings - Sun 21 May 2017 20:14:38 #0

Name of the steel outfit

popped into my head. It's admiral....Joe



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